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Gun Confiscation: Fantasy vs. Probability

This piece has been contributed exclusively for reader’s of SGTreport by our friend Mark (pseudonym below), a firearms industry executive & part-time police officer. If you missed my in-depth interview with Mark in which we talk about the Second Amendment, Liberty and the UN gun ban treaty, please give it a listen, here. ~ SGT

by Mark S. Mann,

For as long as I can remember, people have always talked about what could happen, or what would happen if legislation were passed leading to confiscation of legally owned firearms in the United States. When this topic is discussed, people tend to get very emotional, and justifiably so. However, most people fail to understand the logistics that would be required for mass gun confiscation to actually take place. The common theme when people discuss this possibility is that law enforcement, federal agents, US Military, or foreign troops will show up at your door step to confiscate your firearms. Although I am not saying this could never happen, I am saying that the likely hood of door to door confiscation is highly unlikely.

Before you tell me I am wrong, and you start quoting language in the proposed UN Small Arms Treaty or the Department of State Publication 7277, first let’s take a look at some very common and easily verifiable facts and data:

1.) As of 2010 the number of individual households in the United Sates is about 132,000,000 according to the US Census Bureau.

2.) Approximately (1) in every (2) households in the USA have firearms inside of it. This equates to about 50% of all households, which is a statistic commonly used and widely accepted by BOTH pro-gun and anti-gun organizations. Do the simple math, and we can come up with a figure that about 66,000,000 American homes have firearms.

3.) According to data provided by the FBI in 2009, approximately 165,000 SWAT type raids were conducted in the USA for that year. This includes raids conducted by Local, State, and Federal police agencies. This includes everything from the FBI regional SWAT teams, to your local “Anytown, USA” PD SWAT team suiting up for whatever reason a SWAT team would be deployed. The size of the team is irrelevant, but most typical teams have between 8-40 members. What must be considered is that in many larger cities of 150,000 people or more, SWAT teams can do up to 3-4 raids per day, which also contributes to the annual total. To say some teams are busy is an understatement.

Even though we can estimate that there are 66,000,000 homes with guns inside them, this number is probably a bit unrealistic in terms of how many homes have firearms that would be on the anti-gun radar for confiscation. If you are one of those people that believe the government wants to confiscate your single shot .22 rifles or your side by side 20 gauge or your lever action, or bolt action deer rifles, stop reading this now. That will never happen, and I am not going to waste a single second of time dealing with that fantasy. If that did happen, there would be a civil war in this country. During a civil war, the possibility of someone coming to your door to take your guns would not be your biggest problem at that point. Let’s discuss a more probable scenario:

The “powers that be”, for lack of a better term, are more interested in limiting a civilian population’s ability to resist control. That ability comes from civilian ownership of one type class of firearm: Box magazine feed, semi-automatic rifles… what the uninformed call “Assault Weapons”.

Firearms industry data shows that about 30 million AR-15 type rifles have been produced in the USA since the early 1980’s. I am giving this figure because the AR-15 is probably the most widely owned “assault rifle” in the USA, and it would be a small miracle to tabulate the amount of AK-47, FN-FAL , SIG, H&K, or whatever fill in the blank type of “assault rifle” produced or imported into the USA in the last 30 years. So let’s just say for the purpose of this discussion that there are at least 30,000,000 homes in the USA that have at least one “assault type rifle” inside. That is roughly (1) home in every (4) across the USA; basically 25% of all households have at least one “assault rifle” inside. I think this is a very reasonable estimate in terms of the data points listed above.

Approximately 30,000,000 homes with assault rifles / Divided by 165,000 Police SWAT Raids Per Year = 181 Years to attempt door to door confiscation with existing law enforcement resources.

For those of you who are thinking that this is a bogus number because the government will use your average, police patrolman instead of police SWAT, or the US Military, or Foreign Military troops to accomplish this task, let’s look at some more numbers:

If you increase the amount of possible door to door raids by 10 times to 1.6 million per year, this means that it would still take you 18.75 years to accomplish this task.

If you increase the amount of possible door to door raids by 20 times to 3.2 million per year, that means that it would still take you almost 9.5 years to accomplish this task.

Do you see where I am going with this? How about the amount of personal it would take to carry out a mission like this? I don’t even know where to begin trying to calculate exact figures, but it would take at least several million people to support the logistics of an operation of this type. Not everyone involved would be a “door kicker”. In order to accomplish a massive operation like this, it would require support people with all types of skills, not just SWAT or military operators.

I am of the personal opinion that there will be police, federal agents, and US military personnel that will follow orders if they are told to go door to door to collect people’s guns. However, I believe that the majority of these people would not follow such an order. I say this NOT because I feel that their beliefs in the Second Amendment are so strong, but because these people know that this would be
the proverbial “last straw” for many Americans, and a possible death sentence for those enforcing the agenda. There would be a big fight, and that’s for sure! This brings me to my next point and a few reasonable questions:

If the common fantasy that people have about door to door gun confiscation became a reality, what would you expect the level of casualties to be for those people that would be undertaking such a mission? I think we can all agree that casualties and damage would be massive on both sides. If you were a SWAT Team, or military unit tasked with a mission like this, I guarantee that you would lose some of your people every day that you tried to carry out a mission of this type. If you lost people every day, how would you replace them at this rate? How could you maintain the resolve to continue a mission of this type? If you were someone at the command level of an operation of this type, how could you expect your men to morally carry out such a mission? What if they refused? At what point does a mission like this become unsustainable?

A door to door gun confiscation scenario would probably rip apart the integrity of state and local police forces nationwide, as well as destroy the integrity of the US Military. This is why some people think that foreign troops would be used to confiscate guns. Let’s take a look at that scenario:

If it would take at minimum, at least several million people with special skills to attempt a viable door to door gun confiscation, this would mean that somehow, several million foreign troops would have to make their way onto US soil. Who would feed them, and how would they do so? Where would they be quartered? How would they operate in terms of a chain of command? James Wesley Rawles paints an interesting picture of how this might happen in his excellent book “Patriots”. These are all interesting questions, but in my opinion the real questions are:

A.) “Do you think all of those Americans who owned the guns these troops were coming to confiscate would just sit back and wait for them to show up at their door steps?”… I do not.

B.) “Do you think that factions of American police force and US military that stayed loyal to their oaths would allow these foreign troops to carry out their mission completely unmolested?”…I do not.

C.) “Do you think that these foreign troops could continue to maintain the resolve to carry out such a mission indefinitely, regardless of the massive amount of casualties that they would sustain?” …I do not.

Now let’s take a look at a more probable, more realistic scenario on how gun confiscation could be enacted:

In my opinion, the “powers that be” will not be coming door to door to take your guns. Instead, the majority of the American people will bring their guns to these “powers” on their own. Before you start quoting Charlton Heston on me, again, keep an open mind.

Without having to fire a single shot, the government can enact legislation to make ownership of various types of firearms illegal. They could simply pick a date in the future (for discussion use January 1 st) where ownership or possession of such weapons would be illegal under the new law after a certain date. The new law will make possession of the banned firearms a felony (one count for each weapon), punishable by a harsh federal prison sentence with no ability for plea bargaining, no consideration of a clean prior personal criminal history, no ability for parole, and no right to a fair trial, or due process. The government may also try to seize or confiscate your assets related to your illegal possession of the weapons. For example, if you are caught poaching game by federal or local police, they are legally allowed to confiscate your firearm, and the vehicle you drove in to get there. My point is that I am sure they may be able to use the same type of legal precedent to seize your personal residence, your vehicle, or your place of business, because you used them to house, or conceal ownership of banned weapons.

Another factor is your employment status. Many people in the work force need to maintain a clean criminal history to keep their jobs. If a gun ban was to be enacted, and you decided not to turn in your weapons, you risk becoming a felon, which could affect your livelihood, and your ability to feed and care for your family. Think about how many people that could be affected by something like this.

By making a criminal out of you, there would be significant risks for failure to comply turning in your weapons: Risk of a prison sentence, risk of losing your career or livelihood, and risk of losing your residence, or business, risk to your ability to keep your family together, or to support them. The system / government would be able to apply tremendous leverage to a large portion of the armed population to enforce their confiscation agenda. In my opinion, many people would be simply unwilling to risk giving up all those things mentioned above just to keep their guns. If you filled out a form 4473 in the last 20 years, don’t kid yourself. They have a good idea of what firearms you own. Maybe not all of them, but they know which people own guns, and which do not.

One of the easiest ways to enact gun confiscation is for you to bring your guns to them. For many years, cities and municipalities around the USA have conducted gun “buy back” programs in order to “get guns off the street”. What happens in these programs is that the local police set up a collection point somewhere in town, and they hand out credit card/ gift cards or cash in exchange for firearms with supposedly no questions being asked on where the guns come from.

In the event of a confiscation scenario, similar collection points could be set up nationwide to get people to surrender their guns. There are people who are reading this, who will never agree to something like this. However, consider this: If legislation goes into effect that prohibits ownership of various types of weapons, how many people will have to make a choice of possibly risking keeping their current way of life, or keeping their family together, versus refusing to turn in their weapons ? It’s a lot to consider, but an agenda of this type would be much easier than going door to door and shooting it out with people every day.

Another scenario which would allow for gun confiscation would be an economic collapse or event of some type which would lead to declaration of Martial Law. Once Martial Law is in enacted, the control mechanism is already in place. If we did have an economic collapse, how long would it take before the masses were starving and had little or no food? 30, 60, 90, days? Bottom line, food shortages would be an issue. How about a “Food for Guns” program? Doubt it? Do some research and see how many times in history that food has been used as a weapon to subjugate a population to enforce an agenda. Think about how combat ineffective armed citizens will be once they are on the verge of starvation. Think some people may give up their guns at that point? I do.

I don’t have a crystal ball, but I do have many years of firearms industry experience, law enforcement experience, and training experience to shape my opinions. If I were the bad guy, I would do everything possible to avoid a force on force confrontation with the heavily armed American public. I would do everything possible to win the fight, firing as few shots as possible, without damaging or destroying the infrastructure of the area I wanted to control. I would NOT do anything that would unite the people against a common enemy (the Government), like kicking in millions of Americans front doors, taking their guns, and shooting them if they resisted. In my opinion, it would be much easier to accomplish the agenda of gun confiscation without a unified opposition. The potential logistics and issues being discussed here are nowhere near exact figures by any means. They are solid, basic, rough estimates concerning logistical issues that would be required to undertake a door to door gun confiscation mission in the USA. If you disagree with what I am explaining, I understand, but you need to have more than an opinion to discuss this topic logically. The logistics have to logically support the mission goal and agenda.

If anyone can show how this could be accomplished logistically in a different manor, I am all ears. Again, I am not saying this can never happen. I am saying it would be extremely difficult to accomplish for many reasons, making the door to door confiscation scenario highly unlikely. The combined might of the US military cannot pacify Iraq or Afghanistan. If they can’t do that, then how could any military or police force control millions of armed American Citizens? My only hope is that we never get to the point where this is no longer an academic discussion.

Stay Safe!

Mark S. Mann

35 comments to Gun Confiscation: Fantasy vs. Probability

  • Julie

    “Another scenario which would allow for gun confiscation would be an economic collapse or event of some type which would lead to declaration of Marshall Law. Once Marshall Law is in enacted, the control mechanism is already in place.”

    OK, this just drives me nuts and reduces the credibility of everyone involved. It’s not Marshall Law, it’s MARTIAL as in “related to the military”, not named after some guy with the last name “Marshall”.

    I don’t like being a grammar/spelling Nazi, but we as a group of conspiracy nuts need to do everything in our power to keep our credibility high, and misuse of terms like this undermines it. Please correct and someone feel free to pull my post afterward!

    Julie

    • Frank

      Jeet Kune Do, is a “Karate style” created by Bruce Lee, the martial artist whom “Marshall Law” is based on. This fighting style is credited as “Martial Arts,” due to a translation error that was never corrected; it was reportedly supposed to be a pun on “Marshall Arts”,

      • Jeff

        No, Jeet Kune Do is a martial arts style that was branched off of Wing Chun which is a branch off of Kung-Fu. Karate (meaning: “open palm”) is Japanese, Jeet Kune Do, Wing Chun and Kung-Fu are Chinese. Bruce Lee was Chinese and trained by Ip Man in Hong Kong.

    • Bob A

      Good one Julie. Put a smile on my face. I thought it was Marshall too. LOL.

    • Julie

      Yay – it’s fixed! :D

  • Paul Prichard (Paper Bear)

    The psyop of the former “powers that be” has failed what with the explosion in the volume of firearm sales.

  • Paul Prichard (Paper Bear)

    “the government can enact legislation to make ownership of various types of firearms illegal.”
    And how many of the 50% of the American people would be ordering their representative to vote down such legislation on pain of a recall election ?

  • Paul Prichard (Paper Bear)

    People like General Wesley Clarke and Steve Pieczenik seem to be anti-cabal and might be doing something from within.

  • Don

    Look around at this zombie nation. For every one of us that ‘gets it’, there are 10 good citizens who will turn you in for an atta boy or a pat on the head from big sis. These uneducated rubes will be the true problem. Remember when Obama unveiled his snitch line? We had family members turning on each other. What happens when the anti firearm propaganda is in full force? Ads will blanket ever medium. Telling amerikans it is their duty to turn evil gun lovers in. In this situation it would be possible for a small force to disarm an entire city. Ask yourself this: if a swat team was entering your neighbors home, would you intervene? This is the method they will use. First they came for……

  • Choo Hader

    I bet it’s more than 66M households. You have to figure that many of the people in polls will say they don’t keep a gun although they do for many reasons, for instance they are on parole or have a felony conviction, which isn’t very hard to do for the pill taking generation. Hell, I would bet that many people who are pro-gun control are hypocrites who actually have firearms!

    This number will continue to rise, besides the obvious conclusion people are making that society is out of control. Another factor is the aging population. People are becoming aware “they ain’t what they used to be” and have no chance in a physical confrontation with anyone younger than 70 (grannies with snubnoses.)

    Also, I have noticed in American cities and suburbs, areas that were formerly “nice” decades ago now look like 3rd world slumholes with creepy looking guys with saggy pants and unsavory rap music blaring everywhere you go, and hoochie “baby mommas” breeding armies of potential out-of-work, out-of-money criminals who will grow up in one parent, poverty and drug ridden upbringings, with “da TV” raising them.

    As for probablity of confiscation, fuggedaboutit. All the studies are pretty clear, everytime you ban firearms, CRIMES AND MURDERS GO UP, and occasionally the govt goes rogue and kills millions.

    I believe we have a lot of stupid people in this country, and continue to vote for violent scoundrels and cheats and thieves, but I don’t think will ever go for this. The only people who are on board for commie gun control are faggotty New Age types and some idiot TV-brainwashed suburban housewives (marginal people.)

  • AndyB

    The problem with the author’s view that you would worry first about your job and family is that we now have over 20% of the working age population without a job and a total of 30%+ with no job or subsistence wage with more than 50% of all households receiving a gov’t check. As Celente says: “when people have nothing more to lose, they lose it”. In survival mode or times, no one is going to willingly give up whatever weapons they have.

  • Charleston Voice

    We feel ammo controls through the fedgov will be implemented along with import licensing on reloading components, powders, primers, etc…even local police will have to get ammo from the fedgov.

  • AEQUITAS VERITAS

    Pretty interesting, coming from a law enforcement perspective. I remember some of these “gift for guns” exchanges! What a joke. Who in their right mind would give up a gun for a $50 gift card to Walmart! What’s wrong with these people! Hang on to your 2nd ammendment right and don’t ever give up your guns!

  • GoodOleBoy

    Well, I can tell you this, they need to give me a lot more that a $100 gift card for Walmart before I would even consider giving them anything. That would equate in most cases to at least a 20% loss and in most cases much, much more.

    This is a well put together article and expresses many of the same feelings I have on the subject. The one thing he did leave out is the economic repercussions on firearm confiscation. All of those guns in the US, while some just sit unused in the top of the closet, the others require regular maintenance and ammunition. Involved with that are gunsmiths, gun stores, ammunition manufactures, cleaning supplies, and it goes on and on. So what happens when all these people wake up and find they no longer have a job?

    That said, if it were to be done, the turning you gun in at the local church would be the most likely scenario. We are already seeing that happen. This is one issue I think that most Americans will put up a fight for, or at least I hope so.

  • dan

    NEVER surrender your firearms…clean’em,load’em,stack’em,prepare to use ‘em….long live the Republic

  • Ed_B

    “Although I am not saying this could never happen, I am saying that the likely hood of door to door confiscation is highly unlikely.”

    Anyone buying a new gun from a shop or a gun show has already registered their gun with the Feds. No need to do a “house to house” search to find these. If a person has even *1* gun purchased this way, it is likely that they also own other guns that they have purchased from or traded with private individuals with no paperwork done on them. Therefore, I suggest that the 1st wave of a gun grab would be from government records and not from random searching, which I agree would be VERY time-consuming and not very productive.

    If it comes to gun confiscation, it is imperative that a free people not give in to such illegal coercion… and no, a tyrannical government saying that it is legal because they passed a law allowing it cannot supersede the US Constitution or our “unalienable right” of self-protection from ALL comers, foreign and domestic. If guns are grabbed, there will no longer be ANY need to continue holding those pesky and expensive elections… and no way to stop them from going this way. If we value liberty, we MUST be prepared to defend it by any means necessary.

    One can only hope that the US Military takes their oath to protect and defend the US Constitution seriously. I know that my Dad did when he served but that was a long time ago. I have a great deal of respect for those who serve our country by fighting for it and for being prepared to fight for it. I would hate to see that respect destroyed by a “we will follow orders at any cost” attitude. That has already been tried and thoroughly discredited because the cost of that is just too damned high.

    • GoodOleBoy

      Not that I doubt the government is keeping tabs on who owns firearms but the process in my state as well as many others it is illegal to record firearms purchases. When you go to buy a firearm, you are required to fill out information for a background check. The only person legally able to keep a record of that purchase is the store and the bank/credit card company if you used a card or check. I believed for the longest time that the paperwork filled out was a registration until I was corrected and then reaffirmed that with a local law enforcement officer.

      To say again, in most states it is illegal for the federal government to keep a record of individual firearms purchases. Not that that stops them from doing it.

      • Defender

        Two points to consider. When a firearms dealer goes out of business they are REQUIRED to turn over their stack of 4473′s to the BATFE. Do you think a lot of dealers will stay in business when most guns and ammo are banned?

        And you argue that it is “illegal for the federal government to keep a record of individual firearms purchases.” Not that the law has ever stopped our crooked politicians before but how hard do you think a simple rule change would be?

  • Sparx Eightthreetwo

    I agree that “gun control” legislation will be the primary method utilized to disarm the American people. Here in California we just won a major battle merely a few days ago regarding SB 249:

    “ASSAULT WEAPON BILL HELD BY COMMITTEE”: http://sd08.senate.ca.gov/news/2012-08-15-assault-weapon-bill-held-committee

  • Scott Wolf

    “The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it.”
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Nothing else needs to be said about this issue.

  • FreedomScribe

    Guns without ammo is like a man with a vasectomy attempting to procreate. Not happenin’. The Feds and their Leftist corporations’ stooges are buying up not only ammo but the ammo manufacturers. This is their plan.

  • prestodo

    All that has to happen is for ammunition sales to cease or for ammunition to become much much more expensive due to shortages, like for example the govt. buying up billions of rounds of ammo, just as it is doing right now.

  • Larry

    Excellent article and very thoughtful. I wish more police officers were the same.

  • Ed_B

    @Sparx… ” “My greatest fear is that another senseless act of violence will happen before the loophole is closed.”

    Senator Yee needs to understand that liberty is not a “loophole”. This man needs to be voted out of public office so that he can do something productive with his life and not waste it in dastardly attempts to deprive others of their liberty.

    Fortunately, there is still a tiny spark of sanity remaining in Calif. and this legislation was defeated… for now. The fight, however, is FAR from over.

  • Sam

    It is very likely that before we lose our rights to own guns, TPTB are going to allow TSTF scenario so we have choas, rioting and mass murder among the civilians. There will lead to massive loss of lives. Then Martial Law will be implemented which will be welcomed by the population. Folllowed immediately by Gun control and confiscation which also will be welcome by the weary population.

    Of course there will be a a couple million or so left that wouldn’t turn them in at any cost. Those will be the ones that will be shooting out with the gestapo SWAT teams!

    I hope people ‘wake up’ before that because once our guns are gone, tyranny has won!

  • Slingsalsa

    The mechanisms that run/thrive/and expand upon creating an absolute atmosphere of fear, have ZERO power when no one is afraid and cannot be made to cower over their mechaniations and actions. Fear is the mind-killer it is the little death that brings total obliteration. This governement and their controllers are beyond impotent and ineffective, like a manager that only knows how to micromanage, because he hase no actual management skill and has to resort to pavlovian mind-games and creating an atmosophere of ‘i am always watching you’. Christ, has anyone figured out you CANNOT MANAGE PEOPLE, you can only manage the context of interaction and the conversation with and between others. Now, that being said look at how absolutelly DOMINATED all discourse is about such issues, the profligate atomization of such manure to spread into the wind will be avoided by those that know better, and parrotted/prosecuted by those that don’t even know any better, much less get that they are sentient beings capable of managing their own lives without external influences. Freinds, Americans, countrymen, fellow HUMAN BEINGS, this discussion is being had and is spreading, albeit slowly. We cannot be silent in these issues, our silence is what they take as our consent to their activities. Our collective splintered silence will bury us all. No more than now in human history does the world need the average American Joe, the inheritor of every race on earth that came to this land to declare their aborigional rights of being a living breathing human, which preceeds all laws of man and its institutions/governments, it is the immovable progenitrix of all kings/orders/guilds etc, and is part of the natural order, like the tree of life, look at it, honor it, give it love, but do not F***k with it. We have a scared group of people in power that have been thoroughly corrupted by their own fear and propaganda, and they know that they are a break-away society that no longer has any place, purpose, or reason for being on this planet and human society. They are destined for a librarians work in a forgotten section of a library. So long as we resist, they will persist, if we stop persistently resisteng them via stimulous/response though all that they do against us, they will never disappear, they will never move on, and inso we will collectively seal our dooms together. Please heed what I say for yourselves and your own lives, we cannot function together if we cannot function seperately.

  • jono

    I did not read all the post so forgive me if I repeat a theme.
    They may not need to raid/visit everyone they may setup a system where you have to turn in your weapons to live/eat/work or some other type of senario.
    Don’t doubt it that if they want your weapons they will try all the dirty tricks to separate your weapons from you!

  • Charles Heller

    Can anyone give me info on how to reach the folks who run this site? I would like to get permission to republish this article on jpfo.org – I am the executive director.
    Thanks,
    Charles Heller
    charles heller at jpfo dot org

    • SGT

      Please feel free to reproduce it, if you’d be so kind to leave the author intact, and credit the original source (i.e. “from SGTreport.com”) – Thanks much. ~SGT

  • John Doe

    Excellent article. Scary stuff. I think the KEY is in EDUCATING the poverty-striken with knowledge of how important our 2nd Amendment rights truly are. If they weren’t so “in the dark,” they wouldn’t have voted for another four years of this crap.

    The media is becoming more and more of a HUGE problem in all this….NBC should be ASHAMED of allowing and promoting Bob Costas’ anti-gun rant about the NFL murderer to 20 million viewers on Sunday Night Football and how it “wouldn’t have happened” if he didn’t have a gun – BS, how stupid! Bob was not looking DOWN but rather INTO THE CAMERA which means that he was using a teleprompter! NBC knew what he was going to say and permitted it!

  • John Doe

    Please correct my post from “poverty-striken” to “poverty-stricken” – thank you!

  • Jim

    OK, let’s say that 20% decide not to give up their guns and face criminal charges.
    That’s about 13.5 million arrests. Do they plan to arrest 13.5 million US citizens and hold them in prison? They will have to do away with due process and place them in one of the FEMA detention camps. That would mean declaring Martial law (for how long) How are they going to feed and take care of them? Will American’s allow that? Will our legislators (no matter how corrupt they are) allow it? Will the Supreme Court allow that? If so, we’re no better than North Korea (maybe worse).

  • Jeremy

    I laughed until I cried when I read something about “the integrity of police depts…”. So you are telling me that Leo’s of ANY type, who are already nothing more than government collection agents and traitors to the American people are suddenly going to develop a moral, ethical code in dealing with enforcement of law?
    Nice try. If an Leo’s job was only enforcement of laws that benefited the citizens, then I would recant. But since they are mostly enforcement of the “Rule of Law”, which protects and serves those in power, I could really care less what any officer, who decides every morning to go to work and enforce laws that just pummel the s*** out of taxpayers, has to say about “police integrity.”

    In my honest opinion, Any way it goes in the next decade, Leo’s are gonna be added to the Endangered list, because I, we, have had enough. “Just following orders!” You say? Well the sharp end of a stick is still part of the stick.

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